3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

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insagt1
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3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by insagt1 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:35 pm

WE have had some fun discussing the relative merits of Wednesdays vs Sundays. Most here favor Wednesdays (the attendance figures and 'eye tests' would indicate that the fans like Sundays more than Wednesdays) However I really wanted to test out the very subjective thoughts that playing 3 in 3 nights produces bad hockey. If one considers bad hockey lots of wins, well, that is also one's perrogative. The games don't have to be pretty. Winning is still THE main objective. Plus I have also indicated that we play a ton of ugly games on Fridays, when allegedly we are better rested. Last year we were pretty bad at home on Fridays.

Anyway, one doesn't have to like what I'm posting, but these numbers are real, not opinions. I didn't stack the deck...just used random years where stats were available to see if there were trends. For what its worth:

A random look at 12 seasons (some good, some mediocre) yields this:
1965-66: 9 3in3's--3rd game wins 7. Overall record 19-7-1 for the 3 in 3's
1972-73: 6 3in3's--3rd game wins 3 and 2 ties. Overall record 11-4-3
1981-82: 10 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 6 and 1 tie. Overall record 14-11-4-1
1986-87: 12 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 8. Overall record 21-13-2
1990-91: 16 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 7 and 3 ties. Overall record 26-16-6
1995-96: 6 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 5. Overall record 11-6-1 (Last Calder Cup)
2000-01: 8 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 5 and ties 2. Overall record 16-5-2-1
2006-07 8 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 4. Overall record 12-12
2011-12 10 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 5. Overall record 11-12-7
2015-16 8 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 3. Overall record 10-13-1
2017-18 8 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 7. Overall record 13-5-6
2018-19 5 3in3's-- 3rd game wins 5. Overall record 9-4-2

In 106 3in3's, 3rd game wins were 65; ties 8 and losses 33. Winning percentage 61.3%

Generally, as the season wears on, the 3in3's should be taking a larger toll, according to those who feel they are a detriment. So, I looked at the last 4 3in3's of each season. The record for the 3rd game was 34-8-6. Every year was a 'winner' except 2006-07 which was 2-2. I find that quite telling.

In this 12 year sample there were 6 3in3's that resulted in 3 losses; 14 that resulted in 3 wins and 1 actually resulted in 3 ties. 3rd game wins that followed 2 losses..8 times.

Almost every season example had at least half or more of the 3rd games result in wins. Only 2015-16 resulted in 3 wins in 8 3in3 events; and 1990-91 resulted in 7 wins (but 3 ties) in 16 events.

Throughout the decades and since 2000, there is no definitive data that suggests that 3 games in 3 nights produced unsatisfactory hockey RESULTS. On the contrary it is pretty clear that the results were pretty darned good. My eyes over the decades did not see extraordinary sloppy, poorly played games. While this is subjective to the beholder, what is clear is that the team won a whole lot more than they lost.

So the league and anyone else can say whatever they want to make them feel good, but these guys are pros. They play when the games are scheduled; they will always complain; but they always do compete and the results are pretty strong to indicate that Amerks have always put their best skate forward when facing that 3rd game, when supposedly they should be at their worst.. Especially in the past 2 years, they have excelled in winning those 3rd games.

does this do anything about the Wednesday vs Sunday debate? Probably not. But what it should do is at least put to rest this myth that those 3rd games are hurting the team's chances for success. Artistic success? I really don't care when I know they win these games. I know the frustration of watching miserable Friday night hockey at the BCA over the past few years. That certainly has not been fun. Do we attend games merely because its convenient; or do we go as fans because we want to see them win?
Don't know what else to say. The league may not like them as they try to reduce their numbers; but they also acknowledge that mid week games don't draw fans. The NHL rules, so attendance is a non factor. But recall that back when they had more, they were usually off from Monday to Friday. A pretty decent 'break'. Most the whining about the 3in3's has been a rather recent phenomenon as though suddenly these players just can't take it anymore. And if thats so, they are in the wrong profession.

I don't have stats on how many players got injured significantly by playing that 3rd game, but I strongly suspect there weren't many. They got tired...but satisfied to get the 2 points on most nights.

So there you are.

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hockey13
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by hockey13 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:53 pm

The PHPA & NHLPA both come to an agreement with the NHL/AHL to limit 3 & 3 in the AHL. The player's didn't want it anymore or did NHL teams. That is why it has happened end of story.....(mic drop).

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keithLGA
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by keithLGA » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:00 am

insagt1 wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:35 pm
Throughout the decades and since 2000, there is no definitive data that suggests that 3 games in 3 nights produced unsatisfactory hockey RESULTS.
Start digging through fan commentary from having to watch the games. I don't think anyone has said there was a rash of injuries, it was just bad hockey to watch.

And like Mark said, it's the players associations that wanted them to end. Not the teams, not the league, not the fans.

insagt1
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by insagt1 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:07 pm

PS..I'm always grumpy after a loss. I hate losing....anytime, anyday.

You guys miss the point completely. A comment, maybe more than one actually, was made about the bad hockey that was played on the back end of 3 in 3's. and the possibility of more injures. 'just bad hockey to watch'...guess you like losses more than wins. A completely subjective statement at its worst.
My point as evidenced by a lot of evidence...is that just wasn't true...if results matters at all. Which it does, at least for me. I don't care to go to games where the play is 'exciting' and we lose. How can anyone refute the fact that the Amerks won a ton of games on the 3rd night. If fans complain about routine wins, then they aren't fans.

Hate to keep bringing this up but I have attended games for decades and the so-called 'fan commentary' rarely if ever complained about an Amerk win on Sunday night. this is a relatively new thing and everyone hops on the bandwagon. How far back can you actually verify fan commentary. Thats lame. And how many fans...the posters here?

I know it isn't going to change, but it has little to do with how hard teams play on any given night. Of Course the 'players didn't want it anymore'..the shift to midweek games means fewer fans...which no longer matters at all. And in a league where 7 teams can't even play a full schedule of games..nothing surprises me anymore.

But in your rush to defend the players, the associations and the NHL, at least don't just close your eyes to the results...which was my point. It didn't hurt the league, the players, or the fans. Bad hockey can be and is being played every day of the week.
Last edited by insagt1 on Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

insagt1
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by insagt1 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:20 pm

hockey13 wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:53 pm
The PHPA & NHLPA both come to an agreement with the NHL/AHL to limit 3 & 3 in the AHL. The player's didn't want it anymore or did NHL teams. That is why it has happened end of story.....(mic drop).
This is the first year that the Amerks will only play 2 3in3's.

And did you or Keith bother to read my analysis at all? The header read 'how bad'? I was pointing out that it really hasn't been that bad, not that I thought it would continue. Sometimes you and others are so quick to simply lecture about 'thats the way things are now', like the big giant head waved his magic wand and decreed things are going to be different now, so don't even bother talking about it in a critical way.

And the argument that its bad hockey just cannot be proved objectively, at all. Yeah, some guys here say the hockey isn't good, but I'm sure they and others never bothered to check the results...which correct me...is why they play the games, right? When I walk out of the BCA after another crappy loss on Friday, should I be saying...boy don't play those Friday games after the guys are well rested, because its bad hockey..another loss??? Isn't it even a little interesting to you guys that in the past 2 years the Amerks are 7-0-1 in game 3's? That sure is a lot of bad hockey. :twisted:

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keithLGA
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by keithLGA » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:48 am

When you walk out of a building what you remember is a lot different than years later only looking at the win/loss column. You can win a game and the hockey can be bad. You can lose a game and it'll be close and exciting. Years later we only look at the win/loss column. It's too bad games don't have a rating system.

insagt1
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by insagt1 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:30 am

thats actually an interesting idea Keith.
What I remember is whether we won or not. Not how did we play. That has never factored into my thinking. I don't like losing and historically ( :lol: ) I never like ANY excuses for a loss!
Saying the hockey is 'bad' on the back end of 3in3's just can't be quantified at all. Those who don't like them will always find ways to justify that by saying the hockey isn't good. For me, whether its Friday or whatever day, I want to win. The records indicate how many times the team won under those 3in3's. Thats what matters to me.

you know its really a laugh...for decades the league and players somehow managed to play these games. Now, suddenly, everyone whines about them. The league, the players association, the NHL and those who make the decisions are so 'soft' they can't even agree to have everyone play the same number of games for Pete's sake.

You want 'commentary'....just ask a few of us about those Sunday games where a Barry Smith single handedly killed off a 5 on 3 short handed situation, to a standing ovation. Or the rollicking games where idiots like Foy and McCutcheon lost control, the benches cleared, beer was poured on them and the fans were in a frenzy. There were the games where we trailed by 4 in 3rd period and came back to win....bad hockey? Come on. I could waste a ton more time relating to you the games my wife and I saw, on Sunday nights, that were pretty darned exciting. (Steve, Lou...you can jump in anytime here) You will have games like that....and then there will be a few stinkers...on EVERY DAY of the week...and I would suggest to you that during the latest Sabres regime...most the stinkers have been Fridays, when the little darlings have had their 'rest'.

When I walk out of the building, its pretty darned simple....if we won, I'm happy. If we lost, I don't give a darn how we played. I'm not happy. As Jim Rome always said....scoreboard. Everything else is secondary. (unless you really don't care about the results)

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oldtimehockey
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by oldtimehockey » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:27 am

I don’t mind Sunday games at all. Used to attend all the time...60’s. 70’s etc. And yes I was there when Barry Smith killed the 5 on 3, and there’s probably many more memories from Sunday’s I can’t recall right now...

insagt1
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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by insagt1 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:36 am

My wife, who is not a hockey fan per se, but who attended the Sunday games with me and actually enjoyed most of them...always talks about Smitty and that game. She got to meet him that year, and he instantly became her most favorite Amerk of all time. That particular game stands out so much because I have NEVER seen so much energy delivered by one player during an impossible situation....the guy did NOT want to come off the ice. The ovation was long and loud. GREAT Amerk memory for sure.

That one game where I believe it was McCutcheon (but it may have been Foy) lost total control was probably the most serious brawl I have witnessed involving the Amerks (the pre playoff brawl against Hershey is right up there too)--but fights just kept breaking out. Fans were crazy...some running down to ice level and spilling beer on the ref. Not a single player remained on the benches. I think we calculated that it took a bit over 20 minutes to restore order. From that game on, security was ramped up by a lot to make sure that never happened again. Right out of Slapshot...for those who may have thought that movie was over-the-top fiction.

The games have been so sanitized now that it isn't a stretch to say that just about all of them could be considered 'bad hockey' and it is the exception when you get a game like we used to see, for excitement.

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Re: 3 games in 3 nights. How bad?

Post by adsfan » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:00 am

I have been to too many 3-in-3 games on Sundays. Usually, they seem to be against the Chicago Wolves, who play in Milwaukee six times a season. The third periods are brutal to watch. The players look like they are trying to skate in sand.

For insagt1:
I have seen a few Slapshot games in Milwaukee. It happens about once every 10 years. The last one was on April 1 (2012?) against Rockford.

Rob Flick attacked Admirals goalie Jeremy Smith during a second period TV time out. Smith had stayed in his crease during the time out. None of the 4 on ice officials saw it happening until the entire Milwaukee bench, led by Cody Bass, came onto the ice followed by the IceHogs. My wife missed the game, but I got a few photos as I sat nearest the corner where most of the fighting took place. Bass and Smith were punching the daylights out of Flick in the southeast corner. A few secondary fights broke out. Flick thought it was funny, which made other Admirals angry, and they wanted to fight him too. One of the Refs was holding onto Flick's jersey and kept him pushed up against the boards in the corner. An Admiral who was in the penalty box when the fighting started came out onto the ice and was in 2 fights. Michael Latta literally lost his jersey. He didn't wear an undershirt, unlike most hockey players. Good physique, but he can't fight better than my grandma.

Order was finally restored after 5 minutes. Then Rockford Head Coach Ted Dent stood atop the boards of the Rockford bench and started yelling obscenities at the Admirals players who were going back to their bench and had to pass the Rockford bench on the way. That nearly ignited the brawl again and the Milwaukee coach wanted a piece of Ted Dent. Both coaches were ejected along with a few players including Flick and Latta and the starting goalies. The refs sent the players back to their locker rooms and the second intermission was begun. The remaining second period, about 10 minutes, was completed. After about one minute, the teams switched ends and played the third period without incident.

The brawl with Rockford:




This season's mayhem against a dirty Colorado team when Greer jumped Healy; then more fights happened:



Rockford fighting with Grand Rapids the year after the brawl with the Admirals:


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